tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post8389250286062381128..comments2023-06-22T04:39:18.584-04:00Comments on the tenth letter...: Love -- Law or Gospel?Jay Miklovichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15414242753908645401noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-19135107682455993882010-11-30T23:48:25.643-05:002010-11-30T23:48:25.643-05:00great post jay. you should check out these works ...great post jay. you should check out these works on the subject:<br /><br />Elert Werner. "Law and Gospel"<br /><br />Walther, C.F.W. "The Proper Distinction between Law and Gospel"<br /><br />John T. Pless. "Handling The Word Of Truth: Law And Gospel In The Church Today"<br /><br />Zahl, Paul. "Grace in Practice"Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05685658917308782149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-15604023876862340732010-11-30T12:05:01.489-05:002010-11-30T12:05:01.489-05:00This reminds me of a post by a friend of mine.
He ...This reminds me of a post by a friend of mine.<br />He titled it. <br />"Love is no the movement. It's the Law, and you can't do it."<br /><br />Here's the link for those interested.<br />~Nick<br /><br />http://www.whatistherevolution.com/2009/05/29/love-is-not-the-movement-its-the-law-and-you-cant-do-it/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-32531259639331842212010-11-30T12:02:27.308-05:002010-11-30T12:02:27.308-05:00Hey Jay,
Too get back to the critical issue at han...Hey Jay,<br />Too get back to the critical issue at hand yes Deets sounds awesome! I went there once and it was good stuff!Dave Pettengillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10225500778613859062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-20665083307372406692010-11-30T09:56:37.794-05:002010-11-30T09:56:37.794-05:00Rev. Jeremy-
Thank you for your thoughtful respon...Rev. Jeremy-<br /><br />Thank you for your thoughtful response, let me try to address your comment in parts.<br /><br />You said: <i>"Obviously, the Gospel is about what God has done for us: God's love made real and present in creation, prophets, and most fully through Jesus Christ. The Gospel is sheerly what God has done and continues to do for us."</i><br /><br />Believe it or not this statement is one we do not agree on as much as you might think. The Gospel is what God has done for us in Christ by His life lived for us, his death died for us, his resurrection for us, his ascension for us. The Gospel is good news of a historical occurrence. Creation and the prophets testify to the coming Gospel of Christ, and we now live in light of the Gospel. Nonetheless the Gospel is not 'what God continues to do for us'. It is what has been finished already for us.<br /><br />You said: <i>I cannot agree with the premise because I believe Love is not and cannot be a Law.</i><br /><br />I think Mark 12:28-31 answers this. Because of the Gospel we love, that is true. We love b/c Christ first loved us, no doubt. Moreover our disposition to the law as believers is different than it was as unbelievers. We are obedient because it is our desire, we love because it is now our desire, not because the axe is about to fall. Because of the Gospel we are free to obey the law not out of fear or obligation, but out of our desire. Nonetheless, because we desire to love, it does not negate that it is still law.<br /><br />You said: <i>"When we love, the highest form of love is to do so freely"</i><br /><br />To that I say Amen. This is Pauline theology at its best. We are freed from the curse of the law to obey it joyfully. You could replace 'love' in your statement with any other Godly commandment and it would still be true.<br /><br />You said: <i>"Perhaps love is the vessel by which the Gospel is proclaimed in the world. A selfless love for God and neighbor is not one that seeks righteousness but smooths the way for the Gospel to be spoken and acted out. Love ceases to be a requirement or self-promotion and rather becomes a thoughtless (but not without reflection) habit.</i><br /><br />I disagree. Love is a clearly a commandment in scripture. That cannot be avoided, it is OT and NT commandment. It does not serve as a vessel, it is a commanded behavior. Again, in light of the Gospel we find this behavior to actually be our desire. You statement about 'acting out the gospel' concerns me more than any part of this comment. The Gospel is a historical sequence of events. When we witness, what we do is share good news of events that have transpired for you, and for me. It is not tied to our actions at all. Certainly our actions will affect people's willingness to listen, nonetheless the Gospel is entirely independent of us.<br /><br />Finally, you assessment that the first portion of this post was to build the case for the last section is not really the case. The last couple paragraphs were merely to show the logical conclusion of the confusion of Law and Gospel. I have no problem working with secular institutions, or working with people of other faiths, or anything of the sort. I even find that when it comes to the LAW all religions are nearly identical and contain the same ingrained 'law on the heart' ethical code. Nonetheless it is the Gospel (the historical, happened in time, Gospel) that differentiates Christianity from all other religion.<br /><br />Looking forward to your response, this could be a potentially great dialog.Jay Miklovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15414242753908645401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-15117062691695815202010-11-29T18:10:52.868-05:002010-11-29T18:10:52.868-05:00This is a well-written article that I agreed with ...This is a well-written article that I agreed with in the first paragraph but I think we part ways down the line. Let me write a bit and I would welcome conversation.<br /><br />Obviously, the Gospel is about what God has done for us: God's love made real and present in creation, prophets, and most fully through Jesus Christ. The Gospel is sheerly what God has done and continues to do for us. As well, Christ fulfilled the Law and we are no longer under Hebrew Bible commandments. I suspect we are in agreement here.<br /><br />Where you lose me is when we say that Love is the Law. I cannot agree with the premise because I believe Love is not and cannot be a Law. <br /><br />When we love, the highest form of love is to do so freely:<br /><br />- If we love to obtain eternal life, then that is works-based righteousness of the worst kind. We can convert 1000 people to Jesus Christ out of love, but if we do so to obtain eternal life, it is not love but self-service.<br /><br />- If we are compelled to love (as if it were an NT law or a knife being held to my neck to give food to beggars), then it ceases to be love. We then act out of coercion instead of compassion. There are many degrees of this but in essence if we are required to love then we cannot truly love.<br /><br />I could go on, but at its essence, love that is coerced or acting for its own self-benefit is not love. Love that is a Law demanded by anyone from God on down is not really love because we do not make the choice freely.<br /><br />So you can see why I am leery about putting Love into the law column, but equally I recognize that our own actions are not in the Gospel column. So, then, where does love abide?<br /><br />Perhaps love is the vessel by which the Gospel is proclaimed in the world. A selfless love for God and neighbor is not one that seeks righteousness but smooths the way for the Gospel to be spoken and acted out. Love ceases to be a requirement or self-promotion and rather becomes a thoughtless (but not without reflection) habit. <br /><br />While that is a philosophical point, it does diminish your final paragraphs which seem to be the bulk of your goal of writing this, namely to differentiate Christianity from any other religion or social agency because love cannot be the Gospel. It isn't, you are correct. But the law cannot be love either and coercion to love cannot be the common factor for all others that Christianity supersedes. <br /><br />Love then becomes a tool for the Gospel but is not the Gospel and is not Law either. We can learn from and engage in loving acts with other religions, we can work with secular organizations who share our own broken desires to love...because we are not confusing the Gospel for the vessel by which it is brought in.<br /><br />I know that's a long comment and I apologize. But conflating Law and Love seems intrinsically wrong to me, and further using that conflation to negate relations with other religions and social agencies strikes me as missing the point of love in its highest form.Rev. Jeremy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10137491388537194847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-80992345936660768552010-11-29T16:27:13.746-05:002010-11-29T16:27:13.746-05:00no disagreement here Dave, totally am with you on ...no disagreement here Dave, totally am with you on all you just wrote, and specifically on the passages you quoted.<br /><br />However, none of the passages you quoted insinuate that people will come to faith by our good works. This is one of the places the missional movement gets it wrong. The quote by St. Francis about preaching with words if necessary is entirely counter to the 'faith comes by hearing' discourse of Romans. <br /><br />We do good works because faith <br />gives us the desire to do so, not for our justification or anyone else's. (I know we agree there.) Good works are an evidence of true faith, and believers do not have to be called to them... they are the natural outflow of new belief and 'living' faith. If we want to see the church ablaze with 'good works' the only route is to focus entirely on the Gospel.<br /><br />You feel me on this?<br /><br />BTW you did not answer my critical appeal... Deets?Jay Miklovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15414242753908645401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-64814973651546583502010-11-29T16:05:14.886-05:002010-11-29T16:05:14.886-05:00I agree totally that our salvation is by Christ al...I agree totally that our salvation is by Christ alone. I am not saved by working in a soup kitchen, buying groceries for a family in need, walking an elderly woman across the street but living out our faith I believe is crucial. We are told multiple times in the book of James in the second chapter that faith without good deeds is dead. Now we are in no way saved by our good deeds as Ephesians 2:8-9 points out but I believe it is crucial for us to have both faith and good deeds. As James 2:17 says, "It isn't enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn't show itself by good deeds is no faith at all-it is dead and useless." I understand though that my good deeds compared to Christ's righteousness is garbage but I am called as a Christian to care for the orphans and the widows in their troubles (James 1:27) and this is a pure and lasting religion in the sight of God. I would say we need good deeds not to justify our salvation or to receive salvation but it is what we as Christ-followers are commanded to do as people of faith. That while we are definitely not saved by our "good deeds" we are definitely called to have a faith that is lived out with good deeds. A life that is just focused on good deeds misses out on salvation that comes through Christ alone and is empty and hollow. However a life that is just faith but is not lived out in good deeds is like James said dead and useless. I also agree that many will use that Ghandi quote to discredit Christians and use it as an excuse to dismiss Christ. I myself am a man in need of a savior and in me there is nothing good but through Christ I am made clean and am a new creation in him. I will never receive salvation through through my good deeds and the world will never receive salvation on my ability to love them but my hope is that by my reaching out to them in love may it provide me an opportunity to point them in the direction of the God who is love and sent his son to the cross to die for them. Through God's son's sacrifice may they experience true love and forgiveness for sin.Dave Pettengillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10225500778613859062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-64960129738674255352010-11-29T15:17:08.384-05:002010-11-29T15:17:08.384-05:00Thanks Jane, Ryan, and Dave.
Dave, the problem wi...Thanks Jane, Ryan, and Dave.<br /><br />Dave, the problem with Ghandi's statement is that it is a cop out that every unbeliever can use regardless of the 'performance' of believers around them. Nobody will measure up, or even come close to the character of Christ. The unbeliever can always raise the 'you are not like your Christ' argument, and they will always be right. If someone says I am not like my Jesus my only response is Amen, and praise God that he is not like me!!<br /><br />Check my most recent post, I get a little more into my feelings on this. I think we are sort of on the same page, but not completely. We diverge a little when you say we need 'both/and' because that leaves us on the slippery slope of works righteousness, or leaves the salvation of the world dependent on our ability to love.<br /><br />Let's get together sometime soon. Maybe we could hit up that new 'Deets' bbq, it is excellent.Jay Miklovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15414242753908645401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-88977752299256296122010-11-29T14:36:29.740-05:002010-11-29T14:36:29.740-05:00As one of your Methodist buddies I couldn't ag...As one of your Methodist buddies I couldn't agree with you more! Everything has to be focused on the gospel message of what Christ has done for you and I. I recently brought up this very topic to a group of people. I talked about how we have to help show people we need to share about Christ's sacrifice (Gospel) and live out that love in our lives with others around us (law). I believe that God is love not that he is loving, or has loving attributes but he is actually love. I shared how we can be evangelically missional. That if we just preach that Christ died for our sins but we don't live out our faith or care for those struggling around us then we get the situation that Ghandi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." But on the other end which I see in the Methodist church many times is we are very good about caring for the down and out, the hurting, the lonely but we don't share the truth of the gospel with them. When we do this like you said how are we any different than other religions or good-hearted non profits? It can't be an either or but it has to be a both and situation. All the while understand that without the truth of the gospel we would all be lost as we are a sinful and broken people. Thank God for his grace, mercy, and forgiveness and for the opportunity to share that with those around us.Dave Pettengillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10225500778613859062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-50375934009527584172010-11-28T22:14:55.198-05:002010-11-28T22:14:55.198-05:00Nice post, Jay. I had a discussion with some frien...Nice post, Jay. I had a discussion with some friends recently about this very topic. When people are raised in a church that basically teaches "just be good, nice people", being a Christian is viewed as a works-based, save yourself kind of religion discipline. <br /><br />It can result in either 1) people who feel guilty because they're not always good, nice people or 2) people who no longer take the faith seriously because it sounds like a Mr. Rogers episode.<br /><br />When sin and the need for a savior are not dealt with, the result is a shallow and sappy faith.Ryan Gearhttp://ryangear.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8357993002975833949.post-251180792493928132010-11-26T15:24:31.611-05:002010-11-26T15:24:31.611-05:00not a Methodist, but I sure do appreciate your pos...not a Methodist, but I sure do appreciate your post. Well said!!! O that people could understand it and that it would be made clear from the pulpit. <br />Thanks, JaneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com